Mind you, its really just a thing of 'respect' if you can call it.. Of course almost no mod team has official licenses for cars etc, so a mod team can't really disallow people to release updates for it, but without permission its not a 'nice' thing.

At home you can do as you please, but if you want to release you'd have to ask the mod team. I'm not sure if our 'sound guy' is up for it, you can ask at http://historicgt.8.forumer.com/index.php

Actually I wouldn't want to release ''physics'' for existing cars, because the whole problem with rFactor is that there are too many mods and too many versions of mods and tracks. Online is a nightmare. If I'd release something new for an existing mod, the online situation would get even more nightmareish as half use my version and the other half the original version.

Plus, since making my own cars, (I really dislike 'mods' and 'physics'.. lets say cars.. ) I'd hate it for some wiseguy to spend 20 mins changing the grip levels or engine power and releasing it as an 'upgrade', when I've spend 100+ hours trying to get where I am.

If I don't want people to change my cars (there is no way I can stop them though..) I certainly shouldn't be changing other peoples cars and releasing the files!

My opinion is, if you want to 'mod', go make your own mod, not tweak someone elses. And I might actually be involved soonish with a car that laps fast at Le Mans..

Quote from DaveWS :

That's because the car in Niel's video is physically completely different in every way, i.e. he rewrote the physics model for it. The modder's won't let him release the new physics though.

Well, not the model, just the numbers that go into it. The in game steering wheel should be 1:1 with the correct settings and matching rotation, even with the crappiest of mods

Have you checked this?

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=322431

i'm thinking you have speed sensitivity, or steering help or low steering axis sensitivity somewhere.. Make sure to check that post at RSC!

another physics update:
http://forum.racesimcentral.co ... 3867464&postcount=547

More updates
http://forum.racesimcentral.co ... 3864702&postcount=531

hi Titan, in the readme there is a link to a 'tips' page on RSC where you can tweak the in game steering wheel rotation. With a 240 degs wheel like the momo though, you're in big trouble as either you have a very sensitive steering or you simply don't have enough to drive confidently in the knowledge that you can catch oversteer or induce understeer at will. The real car has about 1000 degs of lock and some 30 ish wheel lock, though it could be anything between 28 and 32.

Attached some new physics, and a new nurburg TDF keeping the original bumps (they are actually not so bad, i was fooled by the low grip..) and 98% grip on the tarmac bits.

Z06 time: 7:46
C51 time: 8:07

I'll make an exception so those who says it understeers won't be hunted down and stabbed with the nearest sharp object (though you may end up on the 'possible murder' list.... )



Hmm new avatar ''I killed xx people who claimed my cars understeer''

Those who don't mind becoming sort of beta testers, can you try this track: http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=Suzuka%20GP4
and make sure you put the attached suzuka TDF file in the locations\suzuka\suzuka-2005 dir (and use the 2005 track in game of course).

The other attachment is a completely adujstable car setup availeble for the Z06. A few other changes are: the tyres have 104% longitudinal grip vs lateral instead of 106%, and there is more engine braking and less toe by default. There simply *is* a small window where the car is neutral, but I guess its really easy to overshoot this 'sweet spot' and end up with under or oversteer. I don't see there ever going to be a way for the 'understeer complainers' to get the handling they like. To get the desired lift off behavior, one guy increased engine braking torque to be about 80% of the *engine power torque* which I cannot imagine at all. Perhaps you can run 160.000 rear rollbar and 80.000 front.. It really requires measurments that are not realistic to get the sort of behaviour quite a few people want, but try the attached adjustable version and see what sort of car you end up with hopefully more to your liking. Perhaps It'll lead to some clues to change the base setup, though within reasonable limits (you can go far beyond these limits with the adjustability here.. )

I am at a point with ISI's physics now that I can't see major improvements or changes being possible; though the sum of a few small changes can always be considerable. While there is a chance I'm not getting the most realistic experience from rFactor, I'd say its fairly close and it must be a combination of things like:
- not doing enough miles
- perhaps being a bit stuck in the GPL / LFS / other ISI type of driving style where you've learned to expect certain things that don't happen.
- the unlikelyhood of a decent road car to be oversteery at will
- the shortcommings of any physics engine (be that LFS/GPL/Rfactor)..

Anyways, you can now get your spanners out on the z06, if you'd like, and feel free to upload a few setups, I'll certainly be looking forward to the numbers you use..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUNhek_CvDk

here you can see some moments when not being incredibly insane there is controllable very 'easy' oversteer that is natural to catch without much risk of tankslappage.. Most of the time I just boot it tho.. :P

There might be two issues:
1) Joining / leaving online games with different models might cause a CTD; not sure yet (we thought we solved that...) Let us know!
2) physics where mainly finetuned on the Ring, for which it turned out i may have used a wrong TDF file. This may have caused a slight lack of balance on other tracks. Its a small change (3% less longitudinal grip by the looks of it) but its quite noticable.
Depending on what we find in the very near future, we may have to release a fix for these issues!
Sorry!
Niels

If you go at the ring, please use the TDF files that I've also uploaded and are linked to in the rFactorCentral page!

Hi folks,

Another big step forward for the physics, sounds, looks.. And the 505 hp Z06 is part of it now too. Those who liked V2 should get it asap! Those who still weren't impressed, perhaps you can have another go.

http://forum.racesimcentral.co ... php?p=3484997#post3484997

A lot more realistic, lots more real data including probably the most detailed tyre info giving us accurate load sensitivity and slip peaks.

and a bug in the readme, THESE are the realfeel settings to use (the car 'name' changed)

[Corvette C6]
MaxForceAtSteeringRack=4800.000000
SteeringDamper=11500.000000
FFBMixerRealFeelPercent=100.000000
SmoothingLevel=0

Last edited by Niels Heusinkveld, Sat, 9 Aug 2008 19:40.

Quote from The Moose :

Can't see it being more than a month away, but that's just a complete guess.

And a risky one when placed in a NkPro thread

never one second there, I bet 0.25 max!

Quote from Becky Rose :

They should have read the bible then, it says the only sin that cannot be forgiven is not believing in God.

Oh that depends on the exact religion, there are those who really overcomplicate things and make it harder and less secure.. I don't get it, IF you're going to get into a religion, get in one where success is guaranteed!

Christians worrying about if they're good enough.. partly in fear of ending up in hell. So basically you won't know if you've been good enough until your time has come... .. Christianity is at the end selfish. Trying to do good so you score heaven points. Yet I know of believers who still doubted and where in fear on their deathbeds.

In many ways Christianity is a 70 .. 90 year cliffhanger!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/Leafs2.jpg

Its actually somewhat clever. Very light, very low, certainly not something seen in a plough pulled by an ox..

Quote from Shotglass :

techade might correct me on this but from my understanding if real feel doesnt work with a mod its a clear indication that the suspension geometry bears no resemblance to reality and was coded by a group of platypuses with a sum total of 0 days engineering experience

And the videos of that mod look like they're in fast forward, they grip like ground effect sportscars, not like the overhyped not too advanced group B cars. They probably heard the story of the Group B car running equal times to F1 of the time at Estoril, which is of course one of the greatest bull stories ever to be launced on the web!

3.0 is in the works, we're aiming for a release later this month, I hope it'll be a lot better, but I only just started so its too early to tell!

It will have the sporty version of the C6 (400hp with the sports suspension z51 package) and the Z06 (the 505hp monster). And a convertible version of the C6.

Quote from Juls :

Found it in the browser history!
It is a curve in a ppt presentation from Michigan University.
http://www.mae.wmich.edu/facul ... ture%2003-Tires%20pJZ.ppt

Thanks! Some charts there that I haven't seen yet, some come from popular websites (which comes from popular books probably ) cool stuff.

Force feedback is 'there' for a few reasons, tyre self alligning torque is only one of them. What feels like a pure self alligning torque based FF is GPL if you happen to have that installed and use a lowish max torque in the INI.

Suspension geometry (trail, caster) can add so much more force to the steering rack that you almost don't feel the pure aligning torque anymore. As usual, it all depends!

Quote from Juls :

Yes, concerning this lift off issue, the 3.0 was the best for me. Do not misunderstand me. This mod is great and you did an awsome work.

Thanks!

Quote :

I just think there is a problem with physics models in sims. Developers sometimes seem to think realistic means unforgiving. Because of that, catastrophic events like spin are too frequent in sims, and driving sims fast often means "finding the way to drive fast without spinning", whereas in reality it is more a question about proper trajectory, timing...etc.

I absolutely agree.. The problem is that mods are made by people who have an idea how a car should handle and they tweak and notepad until they think the car handles like how they think it should (uhhh yeah.). Very subjective. While there is always some subjective aspect in the car setup, the main weights and tyre properties can only be slightly subjective; most of their main handling properties are known, or at least close enough.

Quote :

I do not know if I manage to explain well. In real racing, spinning and crashing is far less present, and even at very high speed there is still a large choice of trajectories, possibilities, because tyres are more forgiving.
Punishment for a small mistake is a slight slide, loss of speed, wrong trajectory...and less frequently a spin or crash. It makes racing more enjoyable. (of couse we tend to go faster in sims but going slower does not solve the problem)

Absolutely. The ''weird'' thing is, some find the Historix cars to be just like this: Push hard, silde around, but plenty of margin to stop you from crashing, but some have trouble keeping the car on the road when they start to push it. Perhaps the physics engine 'faults' make it harder to get a feel for the limit. There are certainly enough clues to make the driver aware of a possible problem in the very near future, but it appears that some find it hard to 'see' this.

It doesn't have to be simracing skills, it could be the still somewhat 'narrow edge' physics which they are by nature. Skill is always a part of it; there are those who struggle to go sub 10 minutes, some sub 9 minutes and some sub 8 minutes in Grand Prix Legends at the Nurburgring. A great example just how big the variety is between simracers.

Certain driving styles you can get away with in some sims might not apply to ''better'' rFactor mods, or at least not in the same way that you are used to. I for example can't understand how people can drive GTR1 and GTR2 as all logic simply doesn't apply and I'm left struggling. With the Historix I find the limit by going slightly over it and this can happen lap after lap. It is natural to me whereas to others, GTR1 is more natural.

All that stuff is subjective though and as said, those Historix are made along ''as objective as possible'' lines, so the handling is only in part the result of how I think the cars should handle. Its mostly the result of a collection of very reasonable tyres, aero, engines and car setup. Though the variety you can get within these reasonable limits is still pretty large.

Quote :

Recently there was another mod inspired by your work, the new version of caterham. It seems the author has worked a lot on the tyres curves using your tools and I enjoy it very much. It manages to give this large choice of possibilities even at high speed, like iRacing (from videos I have seen). For me this is the way to go.

Yeah was nice to see some of my (admittedly dated) tyre tools being used! The peak slip is a bit much though iirc (11 degrees) but I'm glad they're convincingly drivable for most!.

Quote :

(Yesterday I saw the curve of friction vs slip angle of a real tyre...after the peak, it just falls less than 10% and then remains flat! Self aligning torque falls, but certainly not friction...so many sims get this wrong)

Yup .. can you post that data perhaps? Always good to see more of it

Quote from Juls :

Picture this: 150 kph, on a very very very light turn, like a highway sloooooowly smoooothly turning. You are far far away from the grip limit, very safe...german autobahn. 5th gear, a bit more than half throttle.

Then your exit lane is not far anymore. You lift the throttle to slow down...and you are dead, because you forgot opposite lock. Haha. Opposite lock at 150 kph on highway. Are you sure? Is it not a tad too sensitive even for old 911s ?

Far from the grip limit at low revs in 5th gear that won't happen (talking about the GTC76 porsches (2.4 / 2.8 /3.0). Before you know it in a sim you're at 80% of the limit, its easy to mis interpret!

Quote :

And not all 911s from historix mod have this lift off oversteer. Why?

Depends; the 2.0 (GTC65 class) was build by another physics man, I did the GTC76 porsches. Plus, there is a considerable difference in the GTC76 versions. There are:
- 2.4 , rear aero lift, good power to weight, skinnier less grippy tyres.
- 2.8 (all 2.8s are the same in the mod), radial slicks, more grip, less rear lift
- 3.0 even wider tyres at the back, and almost neutral or even a few kg of downforce at the back

The 3.0 should have the least lift off oversteer issues, the 2.4 is quite scary and you have to be really wary of it indeed. I find I have to be pretty abrupt in the 3.0 to get real lift off oversteer.

Quote :

And these 911s with lift off oversteer are almost unable to oversteer pushing throttle. Why?

Power oversteer depends much on how you drive them. Purely going straight there is too much weight and too much grip and not enough power to really spin the wheels in anything else but 1st gear. Its when you combine the power with smooth weight transfer (cornering) when you .. well I at least, do find subtle 'steering by power', or worse if you throw the weight around a bit more violently.

Sure, rFactor is limited in the core physics, like LFS is limited but in a different way. I wouldn't say the cars handle extremely realistically as some areas are simply not in our control.

The ''problems'' some people have with their handling is in part due to this, but perhaps in part not giving it enough time to get used to it. And of course a few things could still be sub optimal in the numbers used.

Its weird though that some can 4 wheel ''drift'' (that word lost all its pure meaning eh..) through the corners in full control of the slight slide and some go from extreme understeer to deadly oversteer. Such a difference in the way we all drive sims!

Plenty of aliens who wouldn't mind driving a mod with tyres that are impossbile.. He's very good, both real and virtual, agreed, but that doesn't mean that a mod is realistic when he plays it.

That seems to be very hard to grasp for simracers who often think real racers are gods!

Quote from migf1 :

I haven't tried them yet, Niels (only escort rs, mini and abarth so far). But I will surely do. Your escort rocks, btw!

What is the first 911 mod you mentioned above? The key difference between other real life drivers and Sean Edwards, is that Sean has also won 2 or 3 consecutive seasons on F1RST3 with rfactor! This season he doesn't participate in any rfactor league, though. On one of the linked pages I provided above, he says he wasn't 100% happy with the mod and suggested some improvements that were most probably included, but he's wondering why EnduRacers rushed to release the mod. But still, a good mode imho (I tried it on Nordschleife, Varano, Watkings Glen and Brianza)

And now a technical quetsion if you don't mind. Do you happen to know a way of knowing what is the optimal tyre temprature in rfactor? It must be somewhere between 80 and 100 degrees, depending on the car but I haven't found a way to know for sure (in LFS for example you see the optimal tire temp in the car's setup screen).

I think the first PCC mod, a year or two ago, had the reversed weight bias porsche 911. I'm also pretty sure they claime it was realistic!

Sean certainly knows how to handle a real 911 and seems to be decent at simracing too, but he could be a great simracer yet still not realize the actual underlying physics parameters are partly flawed. Even someone like him can easily be fooled by the 'experience' and make false claims about the realism. PCC did improve (the weight is at the back now) but there is no way the tyres are even remotely close to reality.. You can be really good at playing a 'game' and finding the limit of the 'game', much like you have to treat most ISI based sims and mods. It doesn't have to mean the actual handling makes all that much sense (F1RST3 was, if I'm not mistaken, pretty poor from a pure physics realism pov).

Not saying my GTC76 porsches are perfect or anything and there are some limitations in both my skills and what rFactor can do, but they sure are a lot different to any other porsche 911 in rFactor..